**recording device had technical difficulties during introductions, coming back in during Rachel Giese’s intro.**

Rachel Giese: Media Girlfriends is, you know, as a colleague and as a fan, and as a friend of everyone, and I think in, you know, a media landscape where it can feel, you know, quite isolating the the ability to create a network. And I think one of the things that I find so inspiring about this group is the commitment of everyone, you know, really following Nana aba's leadership to also help support emerging journalists and make the space and the industry more welcoming, based on our own experiences, as journalists who've been around for a decade or two. So, so that's who I am, and I will pass it on to Tori.

Tori Allen: everybody hear me? Can someone hear me? Okay, great. Excellent. Thank you. I am really happy to be here. I have worked with almost everyone directly, except for Hannah. And I'm looking forward to working with her. In the future. I spent eight years at CBC Radio. And then I left CBC and spent eight years living in Asia, freelancing and producing three small humans. And I just returned this summer. And I am now I did a short stint at CBC again. And I'm now working for Pacific content as a showrunner. And I think a lot about care and storytelling, and how we can do this better, I've been you know, questioning myself and my own practices a lot. And I really, you know, in relation to Media, Girlfriends, I think it's so key more and more and more obviously, it's so key to have this group of people around you, who you have a shorthand with who understand your experiences, and you don't have to explain yourself to and they just get it and uplift you and support you. And especially in you know, in these times, with everything going on. And I think we all know what that means. Like having this network of people who get that is is a real comfort, and in an a massive advantage.

Nana aba Duncan: Lovely, I am so happy to be back in this room [after dropping out of Clubhouse app momentarily]. I was all over the place, everybody. But here I am. Just to tell everybody, again, that we are recording right now for accessibility reasons. And as well, for those who might want to know what was said in this room. I want to start with why taking care in audio storytelling matters. At least from the media girlfriend's perspective. Garvia and Hannah are working right now on a podcast, a Black history podcast, series and video series for Historica Canada and Garvia and Hannah, both of you have been talking about what the how Garvia, you specifically have been talking about the how in the storytelling, and I would love for you to explain why taking care and audio storytelling matters to you. 

Garvia Bailey: Thanks, Nana aba. It's, for me, this has always been this path towards this kind of storytelling, this, it's always been the path that I've been on. And it's never been about, about me so much as it is about being able to ask these stories of these just, you know, regular people or, you know, interesting people, and then gifting us this great thing like this, this really perfect little gift and then we turn it into something and create this platform. And the the why of why this is important and the how of doing it is more important to me than than ever before. Actually, it's become very clear to me, that it's important as a journalist and as an interviewer, to leave people hopefully better than the way that they came into it because most people come into the idea of being interviewed or sharing their story with trepidation. And sometimes even a bit of distrust. And with you know, you know, perhaps even trauma and when we started and when I started embarking on this, and then we started embarking on this, this journey to start telling these stories and picking the stories very carefully. I realized that yes, how we go about it is equally as as important to me as what we end up with in the end. Because there is a lot of trauma based journalism that happens all the time, there are communities that are marginalized and end up sharing stories and then being just left with a real empty, exploited feeling. So as we started thinking about Media Girlfriends and how we were and what we were doing, yeah, we, the first thing we started to talk about is that we want to do things differently. We want to make sure that each and every person that has an interaction with us and shares their gifts, their story feels valued. It's so important. So yeah, that's that's us.

Hannah Sung: I also just want to say that, for me, it's amazing to work with Garvia every day. And she often talks about the care that we put into the work. And I'm thinking about it a lot these days. And the word care doesn't get used in news media, in newsrooms, when we're talking about what we're doing, like it's, it's a rare word I find because we're actually supposed to not care. We're supposed to be dispassionate, we're supposed to be objective, often, like that's kind of an old school way of thinking. And I think that things are changing a lot. But it's almost the point to not care, right. And so I've been thinking a lot about how when you say you do care, it's a real commitment, because you kind of can't stop, like, where does that stop, you know, you care about your colleagues. So you want to do the work well, and not be placing unrealistic deadlines on your colleagues, etc. But then you think about the people you're interviewing. And as Garvia mentioned, you know, there can be a lot of trauma in their stories or in their, in their lives, and you're trying to kind of bring those stories out. And it's like, oh, my God, you got to really do these interviews and handle the situations in a trauma informed way, which is not harder. It's just, it requires a different approach. And then also, in this Black history podcast that we're making, because we're very aware that the primary target audience is high school students. You know, I'm thinking a lot about the audience, and how do we care for the audience like I, we've been thinking about, okay, there might be a 12 year old kid who's listening to this, and who might be caring for the very first time that slavery did exist in Canada. Race based slavery, and, you know, wow, like, how do we explain that in a story so that we impart the information. But you know, also keeping in mind, trying to think about what that 12 year old kid might be going through in their mind, as they're kind of like, this information is landing with a side with them as we want it to, you know, but it's a real equation of how do we care for everyone involved. And for me, there's no like, final formula or equation. It's like, I'm constantly learning. And I, I actually, now that I do care about caring, I do see my blind spots. And I see new ways or places in which I have to learn how to work so that I can be a better colleague, other people. 

Nana aba Duncan: Tori, Rachel, I'd love to hear what you think.

Rachel Giese: Sure, ultimately, and I think, just sort of picking up on some things that Garvia and Hannah were talking about, and just sort of thinking about, I mean, this this question of care and how we tell stories. And I, I've been thinking about this example, since you invited me to join in this conversation. And I was thinking about, you know, sort of two examples of audio storytelling about queer stories. And one was the serialized podcast  S-Town that came out in 2017. And it was a massive success, huge, like it had over 40 million global downloads. It was somewhat of a it had kind of a true crime pacing, and it was about this, this man who, I'm spoiling it, but it came out four years ago, so but a man who was queer but closeted, struggled with some mental health issues. And after the second episode of, I think, six or seven, he died of suicide. And then Brian Reed, who made the podcast went on for several more episodes to kind of excavate this guy's life and it was massively popular. It was you know, a masterclass in audio storytelling, it was beautifully crafted. And I hated every second of it because I felt it was exploitative, I felt that it was a real what felt like a stealing of a story. And it, it felt salacious. It made me very uncomfortable. I don't think it really handled the understanding of its subject well. And I think even though the main subject had, had died, and a lot of the storytelling took place after his death in kind of excavating his life and what it was, so it maybe didn't do harm to him. I think it did a lot of harm to vulnerable queer people about I think it was, I think it brought up a lot of shame. And it brought up a lot of pain, and it brought up a lot of trauma. And I think that that, and I think kind of there was a sort of a thinking at the time of, you know, everyone wanted to do some some true crime. I mean, that's still remains one of the most popular, sure hit audio genres. And, and I think, I think Garvia, you had sort of talked about trauma earlier. And so what does it mean when you're sort of digging up these stories of trauma, and I compare something like the success of S-Town to a WNYC podcast, Nancy, which was, you know, queer-led, Tobin Low and Kathy Tu, they did more than 100 episodes, and they could not find an audience for the show, or not enough of an audience for WNYC to sustain them. And so the show was canceled. And so I think about, you know, here's the, you know, you have an example of a show of a podcast with a queer subject that is salacious and tragic and traumatic, and has, you know, 40 million global downloads, compared to a show that is complex tells complex stories about queer lives, that centers queer people is hosted and produced by queer people, and it's not a success. And so I think about that in a way of, especially when you're talking about marginalized or vulnerable communities, what kinds of stories get traction and what don't. And I don't think it always matters, who the storyteller is, I think you can tell stories about communities that aren't your own. But I do sort of when I think about those two examples, I think, you know, what is the appetite? And are people catering to, like, which audience are they catering to, which I think is sort of picking up on Hannah's point is, who's the listener for this? And what is this for? And I think something like Nancy was a show that was, you know, made by queer people, for queer people. But everyone was welcome to listen, where I felt like something like S-Town was a show about a queer person, but not necessarily for queer audience. And I think that's where it faltered. 

Nana aba Duncan: Tori, you're up.

Tori Allen: I have thank you, Rachel, that's just making me think about s town again. You know, speaking of care and storytelling, and, you know, the people that you talk to us, I, I just can't stop thinking lately about all of the people who were interviewed for the Test Kitchen. You know, and how they feel about their stories, and what will happen to them at this moment. And, you know, I, I just even in thinking, just as you were talking, Rachel, I was thinking about a conversation I had yesterday with a producer I'm working with, and she had done a pre interview with a guest. Who was in a very, it was a very raw conversation, you know, in a very vulnerable place. And and she, you know, my producer left the conversation going, I'm not sure that, you know, she's willing, but I'm not sure that we should talk to her. Because she is so raw, and she's so in the middle of something, and maybe that's not right, like it felt like we might be exploiting her. And I've talked, you know, Rachel and I had a conversation recently about this extraction model of journalism, moving away from it. And I just, you know, I'm thinking about, again, about that conversation. And, you know, should we talk to that woman she wants to, what does she get out of it? How are we going to frame that conversation for our listeners, you know, how often are we talking to people who just happened to be from a vulnerable community and not just talking about that vulnerability. So those are just some of the things running through my mind at the at the tail end of this go round.

Nana aba Duncan: So, I already see that some people are wanting to come and speak And I'd like to especially invite the audio storytellers. I don't know if we've really gone through like, why, why this, matt-- Well, I mean, I think we've kind of talked about why this matters. But also, what do you think could be the impact of more of us taking care in audio storytelling? I'm going to start inviting people up, and we can just listen, man, this is meant to be super loose, eh? I'm going into my, like, official kind of way of doing this. But I really just want us to have a conversation, and I really appreciate it. So I'm going to invite we've got somebody who wants to come up, Allie wants to say something. But any thoughts were many of you about, about how audio storytelling and taking care in the practice can can help or change the industry? 

Allie Graham: Hi.

Garvia Bailey: Hi, Ali. 

Allie Graham: Oh, sorry. I've never talked on clubhouse before, I'm very new.

Nana aba Duncan: Okay. Can I tell you a couple of things? 

Allie Graham: Yes, of course okay.

Nana aba Duncan: I'm going to tell you and anybody else who is a party hatter, this is something that's a name that's given to, to the folks who have been on clubhouse for eight days or less, you have a party hat on the left hand side of your face. And as soon as you're invited up to a room, the practice is to turn off your mic right away. And then when other people say PTR that means pull to refresh. So you take your finger and you slide down and then you pull to refresh. Allie, go ahead.

Allie Graham: Thanks so much. And sorry to interrupt. Hope it's okay to talk a bit. I just I believe it was Tori who was just speaking about, especially when someone's very fresh in experience, or who's still in the thick, because something that's challenging for them. I work on a podcast with Aliya Pabani, called We Are Not The Virus that focuses and centers on unhoused people in Toronto encampments, and tries to understand the systemic reasons we have the housing crisis we do and why people are living in parks. And something that's been challenging is that people who are unhoused and who are interested in speaking to us are in some of the most dire situations of their lives. And so there is a lot of responsibility and like feeling of like, how can we both, like, understand this person the best and like respect their wishes that they do want to be recorded. But also understand that like, there may be things that they share with us that they're in the moment sharing that they maybe don't want five or 10,000 people to hear later. And so something that Aliya and I have done that I don't think is recognized as like, good practice in journalism, having gone to journalism school, but we do something where we, at the end of an episode, once we're about to publish, we go back to every person, not like city officials, because they're media trained, and we don't feel we owe that to them. But anyone who's unhoused, who we've spoken to, we let them listen to their audio again. And then they can just tell us if they don't want to be in it or not, or if they want anything cut. And so I find that kind of double consent really helpful when dealing with people who are really vulnerable is all I wanted to say.

Nana aba Duncan: And typically how have they responded?

Allie Graham: Very well, basically, it's just been people like that the thing I will say that's challenging, especially in interviewing on unhoused people is that people move around to time. And so someone living in Trinity Bellwoods, for one month could be gone the next. And also people don't usually have contacts, like phones or email, and so it can be challenging to find them. But thankfully, I think we've been able to play the episode for everyone who's been featured in one of them. And usually people are just like, surprised and excited to hear it. Or they're kind of like, Wow, I can't believe I shared that. And then they're usually like, yeah, I want people to hear it. So it's been very positive so far, but it's been, I think, just helpful given how much exploitation happens to unhoused people in media narratives about them. So yeah, it's been a really positive thing so far. 

Rachel Giese: Can I just I just want to jump in. And that was amazing to hear from you, Allie. And I think about this, too. It's interesting. The idea that some of the traditional rules of you know, good journalism practice, like, you don't read a subject back their quote directly or people can't vet a story before it's published. And, you know, there are good reasons to have those rules in place. But I think that that I think there's there also needs to be context, like what you're talking about Allie is I think that those rules sort of came out of a kind of journalism that hasn't served a lot of people like people who are unhoused like people who are struggling with mental health issues, who are survivors of sexual assault that that that's the place where I've done similar to what you've done Allie, I've kind of broken the quote unquote journalism rule of not letting somebody that their quotes, but I have if I, when I've done stories with sexual assault survivors, and they have told me very harrowing things, I will sort of, you know, take care, I will remind them, they're being recorded. And if there's something that feels really sensitive, I have gone back and said, you know, are you sure you feel comfortable with this going out there. And I have to say, I've almost never had anybody take anything back. And and i think that's always the fear that you're going to lose a great quote. And in fact, I find that the way that you framed it Allie as a double consent to be a very helpful tool in journalism for me.

Hannah Sung: I also just want to add, welcome, Allie, it's really exciting to hear about your process, because I'm a huge fan of we are not the virus. And to add to what Rachel was saying, it's not like there should be one style of interview, I think there isn't a one size fits all. Because if you think about Ali's examples of who she interviews, you know, people who are unhoused versus city officials, they're coming from such different places in our society, why should there just be a one size fits all, model for anything, you know, and I think that, as journalists and producers, it's part of the sensitivity or just being a human being about our work, that we can or should be able to modulate or understand, you know, how this transaction is going to work, because it is transactional. And especially when the interview subject has experienced trauma, or is kind of mining their personal story for you, there should be some control being given back to that person, which, obviously, a city official has plenty of controls in our society. I also just wanted to say that I love hearing about double consent and the ways in which you do your work Allie, because the problem with reporting around people who are unhoused or any socially complex issue is that it needs so much context, you know, like, just last night, I was that for our parent council at our school, and the parents and I had done this information session with a group called A Lab Clinic. They are frontline volunteers, lawyers who help people in encampments. And you know, I love the questions from kids. Like, why are there so many tents in the park? You know, they're very kind of basic questions. And the main question from adults was, how can we help? But if you want to unpack those questions, oh, my god, there's like, so much you need to explain so much you need to explain. And a little news clip on the evening news just does not get you very far. So if you are asking or kind of placing a burden on someone to explain so much about the ways of their world that many of us don't have that insight into because we don't have that lived experience. There's got to be a different way of doing things and simply, you know, what Tori calls the extractive method of journalism. So I'm so glad you're here, Allie.

Allie Graham: Thanks so much for letting me share really appreciate being here. And I'm so glad you guys are hosting this. It's so interesting to see. And yeah, I really appreciate the stress over like the example of city councilor versus an unhoused person, just in the sense that during NASH, Aliya did the presentation. And that was actually the main question of do you give this double consent thing to everyone or this opportunity? And it's just that not everyone needs that opportunity at all. Because there are people who would like thinking of city councilors who have been media trained for years, and who are always very aware that there be

Nana aba Duncan: so I've invited a couple of people up and of course, you don't have to come up. But I'd like to us to have a thought or do a bit of an imagination about what could happen if we all continued to take care in audio storytelling and also for other people. I'd love to hear why it's important to you. And friends here who are on the safe like this, let's just go Any thoughts? Garvia I thought you unmuted for a second? were you gonna say something?

Garvia Bailey: I did. I unmuted a few times. But people were saying such incredible things that I just felt like oh, Lord, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna put this this mic down. I really appreciate everything that that Allie was saying and I love, We Are Not The Virus and and I will tell this room now that listening to that podcast shifted something in me, right? It shifted the way that I walk through the city all the time. And I see the encampments, and I am a pretty and I'm, you know, I, I live in a you know, a middle class neighborhood, whatever like right around the corner from Trinity Bellwoods. And the shift that that, that it instilled in me is something that I think that, like, that's the power of what we are doing with these stories is is cracking open that that empathy that we all need so, so much right now, especially. And, and if you're doing it well, and if you're doing it with intention, that taking that care, and with intention, you hear it. And, and it can be so powerful. So that's the power of taking that kind of care and feeling good about it. In your work. I mean, so much of what what we're talking about has everything to do with deciding that we can do things differently. And we should do things differently. And we have the power to do things differently. And reworking, like I didn't go to J school. I didn't. But I came into this world with the idea that people's stories mattered, you know, so, so I didn't have to, I really didn't even think about journalistic practices. When I went out and got people's stories. I did what instinctively felt right. I think instinctively for me. Like, I think maybe I'm an empathetic person. Perhaps maybe I was just

Nana aba Duncan: gonna say What? What are you putting that maybe in there for? Come on.

Garvia Bailey: Maybe I am I think maybe Yeah, maybe maybe you are maybe. But I think that that's important. It is no, so thank you, Ali. Yeah.

Nana aba Duncan: Kearie, am I saying your name correctly?

Kearie Daniel: You are. Thank you. This is a really great conversation. And so my first time speaking on clubhouse.

Nana aba Duncan: Yay, I'm so glad you're doing it with us. 

Kearie Daniel: Thank you, thanks for the opportunity. You know, I was listening to Allie And so much of what she was saying resonated And so much of what you're all saying resonated. I'm one of the founders of an organization called parents of Black children. And, you know, one of the things that we find in in, there's, there's so much we're an advocacy group, looking to drive change within the education system. And it's such a complex experience and the complex, there's so much complexity in telling a story, particularly anti-Black racism, that parents and students experienced in the education system. And it's really hard. So we hear like horrific stories, and we want to share them. But it's really hard to convince families to come forward to share their stories, because there's a lot of shame, and a lot of internalized racism and blaming of themselves that they experience and just a lot of a lot of fear in terms of losing control of your story. Once you once you speak to media, and so you know, I think the conversation around care is so critical and so important, especially as media branches out into delving into more complex social justice issues. It really does require a relook at those journalistic practices that you're talking about. The other thing I do is a podcast called Woke Mommy Chatter. And it's really about Black motherhood in the Black experience. And I've been doing that for a number of years. And, you know, the reason I started that podcast was a selfish reason, which was I didn't see my parenting experience reflected and I wanted to, I wanted to connect and tell the story of what it is to be a Black mother and a Black parent. And it but it, it's, it has me thinking about something which you guys have mentioned, and I'm interested in hearing your take on it, which is who gets to tell our stories. And so, you know, as as we expand the discussion around race in particular, which is what I'm interested in, it's who gets to tell the stories of Black people or who gets to tell the stories of how underserved communities? And do you think that it should be? These stories should be told by people who are representative of those communities? Or is it? How does... or is it okay? for other people? I mean, I have I have my own opinion. I don't know if it's a right. If it's the right one, I do think that I think if there's a fine line, but I'm interested in what you guys have to say about that.

Hannah Sung: You know, I'll jump in for a second, and Kearie, actually, just before I start, what's the name of your podcast? Could you say it once more so that we all have it?

Kearie Daniel: It's Woke Mommy Chatter

Hannah Sung: Thank you. Woke Mommy Chatter. Well, you know, I will just talk from my personal experience of working on this Black history podcast, which is a contract that media girlfriend's took on with historica, Canada historica. Does historical content like heritage, minutes on TV or now on the interwebs? And, you know, way back in the summer, when we were talking about this, it was myself, Nana aba, Tori, and Garvia we were just kind of talking about, you know, is this something we wanted to work on? I said, I don't know if I should work on this myself. Because I do feel strongly that for a show that is about Black history, Black stories, Black excellence, and Black trauma, I feel that Black creatives should be working on it. And, and, you know, Kearie and the rest of the gang, if you want to jump in at any point, feel free. But you know, I just kind of aired my concerns. And because I feel safe with my friends, and I feel there's a lot of trust, we were all very open with each other about it. And ultimately, obviously, because I am working on it, we all decided that we would work together. And it made me think a lot about what my role would be. I wanted my role, even though Garvia and I are in I would say leadership roles in the whole project. I wanted my quote unquote, leadership role to be a supportive leadership role, if that makes sense. I think that I'm always learning how to do leadership, but real leadership or good leadership is supportive anyway. But yeah, I guess just my personal experiences that I've had to think a lot about what my own role would be.

Garvia Bailey: Just the fact, Hannah, that you that you asked the questions, and were very sensitive to it is, you know, it speaks to who you are as as a journalist, and it speaks to who you are as an individual. And, and I'm really, like I would it made complete sense that you would would have this, this sensitivity going into this project. And and when you ask the question of who should tell the stories, I think the, of course, coming out of the same kind of communities, or backgrounds or marginal existence, or all of that makes, it makes sense for it to come from there. But there is, I mean, there is nothing wrong with someone, I think Rachel said it, there's nothing wrong with someone telling the stories of others as long as it's coming from that place of real knowledge and that you have those that you're humble in your approach to it, knowing that perhaps you're you don't have all the answers, and you're not part of that community. And you're you're willing to make the space for those that really do have that knowledge and are part of of those communities or individuals or whatever.

Hannah Sung: I have a question for you Garvia and Nana aba from and Tori from that original conversation. Do you feel like I was asking permission? I don't know. Because I haven't really thought about it. By framing it in that way. In my mind, it was just me kind of talking.

Nana aba Duncan: I think. I think maybe there's a part of you that was I know that if it was for me, I would probably be asking permission in the way that I inquire about it. Or if I was on, like, let's say if it was me and you and a number of like two other Korean people about Korean history. I probably I might say like, Look, how do you feel about about me being involved in the telling of these stories? I think it's a fair question to ask. I think it's okay. It's okay. That you felt that way.

Hannah Sung: Yeah, I agree. Now, looking back on it. So I'm really glad that Kearie has kind of brought this this up in terms of, you know, us being able to kind of look back on that and reflect. Yeah, I think it, I had a thought but it just, it just fleeted from my brain. Sorry.

Tori Allen: I'm gonna Angela, I see you. And I'm I just want to I have had a few thoughts as people were talking and I don't know lose them from my brain before before long, but just thank you, Allie and Kearie, for your perspective for your thoughts and your practices. I love that, you know, this double consent, would love to normalize that for you know, especially for working with vulnerable storytellers. But also just that, you know, this idea of collaboration related to that. And Rachel, I'm going to just nod to you, because I know that you're doing some interesting things that add extra in terms of, you know, like, going to your community, like going to the people that you are your audience asking, what do you want us to report on? But also, you know, there was somebody mentioned about, you know, just a news clip, and and how much, it was you Hannah, like, how much context you need? And I'm often thinking these days about, is this the right format? Is this the right time? Am I the right person? And if you're talking about who gets to tell the stories, if it's not, if it's not your area of expertise, whether that's personal or cultural, or class, or gender or whatever, can you look at your own biases, can you look at the things that you might that might prevent you from, from seeing other perspectives, and be conscious of that and correct for them in other ways. And you know, just how messy a lot of these really complex these stories are, you know, how much context you need. And that, you know, I've just resisting more and more kind of doing, you know, the pat, three minute, four minute, 30 seconds, whatever it is, like in that news clip, because it really doesn't get it that and i can i can enjoy under, you know, working and working in a format and kind of figuring out how to do that in the best way. I think that there's a place for you know, that, but it's just doesn't interest me, it interests me less and less. So, you know, in terms of care, like just being very careful and intentional about where's my best serving this person in this story? Angela, would you like to join us as you speak up?

Angela Misri: Did that work? Hello? I can't tell if I'm on. Hello. Um, so something that I wanted to bring up because I've been listening quietly and enjoying this so much is that I've been in newsrooms with a lot of you, ladies. And I can't tell you how much I appreciate hearing this stuff, because I don't hear it in all newsrooms. And I'm not usually the host. That's not usually what I do in the podcast sphere. I'm usually a producer in some way. And the number of arguments that I have about these kinds of things, where I start to feel really insecure about my own journalism. Like, why am I overthinking? Like, why why am I talking about this so much? And nobody else is. I just kind of wish I had more people like you in the room.

Nana aba Duncan: So let's work together, man. Do something about it. 

Angela Misri: Sure. Let's do that. But I mean, even just hearing it like this guy's it so helps me to hear from you. And to know that I'm not alone in fighting these things and overthinking these things. And, you know, I've been doing this for a really long time, too. So I really appreciate this space to talk about it. That's all I wanted to say. And then I miss you all terribly.

Nana aba Duncan: Ah. I want to I know that. So we started at 915. I have a hard stop myself. I have to be somewhere. So at 1025 I've got to just shut it all down. I do want us to think about where this could take us if more of us continue to push the idea of taking care or intentionality in audio storytelling. Where could it take us? Ryan, you're I invited you to come up because you've been doing a lot of this work. Do you have any thoughts?

Ryan McMahon: Good morning, everybody. I just popped into listen. This is my j school. So it's really nice to it's really nice to be here and hear everyone's reflections and with everyone in the room. I certainly not going to take up too much time and space. But the one thing that I think I can contribute Here are a couple of words in the Ojibwe language that I've really been thinking a lot more about, over the last couple of years in terms of the work I'm doing and You know, there's this moment a few years ago, as we're all aware, called truth and reconciliation. And the more I started to work in indigenous communities, specifically on reconciliation, and what that looks like, amongst each other, I started to hear things about, you know, us kind of identifying the limits and the challenges of this work through the language. How do we say reconciliation in our language? What does that mean? How do we say, decolonization in our language. And so that's really motivated me to think about this work. First, through the Ojibwe language and the word truth when you when you break down the word into its many small parts. The word is dub-WAY-win, dub-WAY-win. But when you break it down into its many small parts, it doesn't mean truth. I mean, that's the English translation. But the English language is just such a miserable failure of a language. It doesn't encapsulate what it actually means in Ojibwe, which is truth. or dub-WAY-win in our language means to speak only to the extent of your experiences through good spirit. And so that sets a set of parameters for the storyteller that I think is really unique.

Garvia Bailey: Can you just say that again,

Nana aba Duncan: I was just gonna say that as well. I need to hear that two more times, please.

Tori Allen: Also writing it down.

Ryan McMahon: That was overwhelming.

Nana aba Duncan: I'm not sure. Sorry. We didn't mean to overwhelm I think we just. Sorry.

Hannah Sung: This is us for ya

Ryan McMahon: I almost dropped my phone, I was like, I'm being yelled at. Needed a bit of a warning there. Um, no, it's so the word truth. The way we say it in the Ojibwe language is dub-WAY-win. And that's the word that we would use for truth, but but the conceptual framework around that word is, is this is to speak only, to the extent of your experiences through good spirit. And so, that becomes instructional for me, which is to say, if there is a part of a story, that I as a as a media maker, am after. And I can speak to it to the extent of my experiences, that is fine. But if it creates an incomplete picture, then obviously, you know this, where we talked about sources and, and community and how can we complete the picture through people's sets of experiences and and that becomes really valuable. This becomes really immersive. This is the success of Allie's podcast-- Hi Allie I don't see you but it's nice to see you here. This is the success of Garth Mullins's work at Crackdown This is Justin Ling's podcast, this is Connie Walker like this is, I think, like storytelling, at its best in this form really comes from the people themselves. You know. And so the the challenge and the instructions that that seeing this work through the Ojibwe language creates for me is that, you know, it's not so much about sprinting towards the story because it's sexy, and it hits and, you know, it's you know, it's going to be important and good work. It's it's really pumping the brakes on that and figuring out how you how you can work in community to create a really complete, nuanced and complex picture of the thing you want to talk about. The the last contribution I think I can make very quickly is the word, di baa jimo-winan is the word that we use for storytelling, but what dibaajimowinan, when you break it down into its many parts, what that word is actually saying is to, to, to invoke your spirit, so your experiences to invoke your spirit, so as to share good spirit with another. And so what you're trying to do is to walk through life collecting these stories, we're all like these walking, living, breathing documentaries. And when we share story with each other, we have to be very clear, we're actually giving the listener the viewer, the reader a piece of our spirit, we're actually sharing a set of our experiences whether you're a journalist and you're completely objective on the outside and looking in, you're still sharing, you know, your experience putting this together, you have a responsibility to that story now to share in that way. And when you start to you know, think about what story is well story is the invocation of spirit it is us like saying like this is this is these are these experiences through these people's lenses that comes with responsibility and so if if if You know, if story is spirit and spirit is life, then life is story, right. And that puts value on every single person in our community because everyone lives this life. Everyone has spirit and everyone can share their story. And so our considerations and how we, how we build story inside of this form, I think should be robust. And I think every decision we make when we get into telling a story should be complicated, and, and exciting, because of all of these sets of experiences and stories and spirits that are that are out there to share. So I just want to add that the Ojibwe language has been a real game changer for me in terms of the way I think of the work that I'm trying to do. It certainly complicates things between yourself and the publisher, where you're like, Listen, man, we're going after spirit. Right? We sure are going after spirit. Okay. Okay, native guy will just leave you alone and won't ask too many questions. I'm like, thank you very much.

Nana aba Duncan: Have you ever had a publisher start to understand you?

Ryan McMahon: I will, I mean, I will I always give credit where credit is due. And and I will say Jesse Brown has taken a very different approach with with the Thunder Bay project, yes, in in many ways, in some ways. Of course, he has not, in some ways, Jesse Brown is prolific at being Jesse Brown. But I think I think it's been a good learning experience for him. Certainly, I've heard from, you know, David Crosby, who I've worked very closely with him on both seasons, who's become sort of a friend of mine that goes far outside of work. And just the reflections of what we're given by, by really slowing things down. And just letting stories kind of sit, letting people have the ability to revisit what they shared with us, you know, 2,3,4 times, sitting there and listening to their concerns after their interviews are done, listening to their fears, listening to the things they wish they would have said, we did start saying kind of trust over tape. So us trying to build that trust, build those connections and community long before we hit record is, I think the way that I like to move I'm sure that's not innovative or groundbreaking in any way. But for us, that's the sticky note on the side of our laptops when we try to when we try to work together. So just wanted to say that much. Just appreciate every single one of you in this room, and I gotta piece out and just listen, so. 

Garvia Bailey: Thunder Bay is. And I think that Ryan, I think there is I think there's a line of T shirts or something in this trust over tape I want that. I want to wear it. I want to put it everywhere. Just so incredible. Go ahead naba. I just wanted to

Nana aba Duncan: No I want I would love for people to respond. Go ahead.

Hannah Sung: I also want that T shirt just saying it just before tape. Yes.

Garvia Bailey: I think it's huge. I think it's huge. And, you know, I'm a bit of a when I when I think of this work, I also think of it in a in the form of spirit as well. I think that that has always been how I approach everything. I don't know if it's has to do with my my upbringing, or I don't know what it is. But that is so important. And, and I remember, remember clearly, I learned from some really great storytellers like I came to the CBC through a show that was all about just narrative personal storytelling that the CBC killed that I don't think they ever should have killed called Outfront, it took a lot of work to create that show from the producers, because it was just asking regular people to just tell their stories. And then and then working with them, and giving them the means to actually tell tell the story. I think it was groundbreaking at the time. And I think it was really forward thinking and kind of a precursor to what we we do in the long form storytelling world net podcasting world now. So I just have to shout out to those those producers that I that I learned from like the Steve Wadhams of the world, you know, those folks that really knew what it meant to share these stories and to and to respect the spirit of the whole endeavor. Think someone had their hand up.

Lindsay Michael: Oh, it was just me cuz I worked at Outfront of for a few years too. And I was just thinking about in front the whole time you were talking about how much care it's like one program where care was really at the forefront from so many of the producers and I just like just wanted to say that's a great show. Now, a really good example of a show where there's a lot of care in storytelling.

Garvia Bailey: Thanks, Lindsay Michael. Yeah, this is just a great a great conversation.

Tori Allen: I would love to hear from Rachel on. You know, like some of the work that you're doing with Extra and going to your community to find out, you know, what stories they want to tell? 

Rachel Giese: Yeah. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I think about and I feel like my, my brain is blowing up with all these great stories. And thank you to Kearie and Angela, and Ryan and Lindsay. So, you know, one of the things that we've been thinking about is actually trying to shift how we work. We've shifted from, you know, Extra was a, you know, a newsprint we went digital only, we've moved more from daily news to long form analysis, personal storytelling essays. And so we're in a process right now, of kind of not necessarily retraining our newsroom because some people do have these practices in place. But, you know, I had a conversation with Anita Li, who I know a lot of folks know. And, you know, she's been someone who has really been a champion of practices like community based storytelling, using practices like story circles, where you bring a group of people together, you give them an honorarium, and you spend time hearing about their concerns. So you might bring a group of older folks together and ask them about health care, and have them share their stories about what are the barriers and what works for them and what doesn't. And you hear personal stories about the personal impact of having, you know, a broken healthcare system, or, you know, one example that Anita has cited is about transit in Scarborough. So you bring a bunch of folks from Scarborough together, and you ask them, you know, tell me, your telling me your transit stories? What is it like for you, and you use, I mean, first of all, you pay people, so you pay for their time and their insight, but then you use those conversations to inform the stories you want to tell. So it's a way of, you know, not a lot. I think some journalists can get kind of prickly because it sort of feels like Well, we're the experts, and we're gonna put it out there. And to me, this is actually a way just to find stories that you know, will have impact what matters to your community, what, you know, what it can be hard to find great story ideas. And so to me, I feel like, this is a way to know what's on people's minds. And so I think it's practices like that, which means bringing humility to the practice of journalism. And I think a lot of care is humility is, you know, I think maybe the most important lesson that I've learned, and I'm not somebody who went to J school, so I've learned on the job is really knowing what you don't know. And if you lead with that, if you know, what you don't know if you know, where you need to step with care. I think that is like a foundational part of the work is, is thinking differently. So, you know, we're looking at embedding that practice. We just had Xia Jones, who works for journalists with human rights, and they also work with us extra, they did a solutions journalism course with us, which has been really helpful to reframe how we cover stories from, you know, looking at people who are, who are, are working to affect change. So I think those are some of the ways that that we're beginning this process of experimenting with form, but also kind of pushing back at some of the journalism norms that I think we've all metabolized and just have taken as the right way to do things. And to kind of question is this the right way to go about things? can we can we meet the measure of, you know, accuracy and fairness. But practice journalism in a way that embeds care that embeds consultation that embeds empowering the people who are supporting folks who tell us their stories. And so, that's been that's been really exciting. And, you know, I've been doing this for a long time and to sort of feel like there can be ways to rethink things. You know, it is also just, I think, really beneficial like in every way whether you know, in spirit in ethics and also intellectually to think we can we can practice this in different ways. And that's, that's been really exciting. And I learned a ton from my team is as well.

Hannah Sung: Rachel, I love that you mentioned breaking journalism norms, journalism school because I think that that's like a common theme in this whole, like, speakers of this. I didn't go to journalism school either. And I almost feel bad for somebody who has to unlearn, you know, the old school model in order to like do more inclusive journalism today, you know, there's such a major paradigm shift that's happening right now, where, you know, we call this session taking care in audio storytelling, but I feel like taking care, which is the point of our conversation, those two words can be swapped for building trust, do you know like, building trust in audio storytelling is also it's basically what we're talking about those two things are synonymous. And when you mentioned, Rachel, that Anita told you that she paid people for their time to share their experiences about transit. For me, that's so powerful, because, yeah, of course, you know, people are so busy working, you know, recently, I tried to interview low income workers to find out how COVID and a lack of paid sick leave was affecting their lives. And an organizer said, Oh, I have three Spanish speaking workers, I think they may have worked in long term care. But and so I was ready to go. But then when the time came, all three of them, one was sick, and two were working. I mean, it shouldn't be a privilege or luxury or hobby to be able to get your story out and to speak to someone, even if you're willing, because they were willing to do it, they just didn't have the time they needed to work. So I love even that, you know, very specific example of breaking journalism norms to get the work done in a better way. Because systems were not designed for everyone to succeed. And, you know, while journalism or while a good podcast can't change all systems out there that are like built in discriminatory ways. I don't want the work that I do as a part of like, quote, unquote, journalism to be a part of the problem. I want it to be chipping away at the problem.

Angela Misri: Can I just speak in favor of journalism schools just because I went to one and I teach at one. But I do take that responsibility. Really, I think one of my favorite things about teaching journalism schools, I get challenged every year by a bunch of 17 year olds who don't know why things are the way they are. So I have to explain it. And if I can't explain it, it's usually a good indication that it's been hammered into me by a newsroom that was wrong and didn't adapt. So just in favor of, you know, people who also went to J school and managed to do that, 

Garvia Bailey: Oh, I don't have anything against J-school. Other than the fact that, that yes, there is some dismantling of the ways that things are done. But that seems to be legacied and set in stone. Because I have to say that like in working in a newsroom for quite a while, I don't think anyone ever spoke to me, as a new journalist, or even a mid term, mid level journalist about humility or care. In the work that I did, I don't think that ever came up, it was just like, get the story, get it done. Like it was just yeah, it was just never a thing, right. And I think that it's true that what everyone is saying is that it's time to start shifting that. Shifting that in our own personal work, that we do the work that and pushing back, I think now is the time to push back on a lot of things. And, and that's just one of them, have we care for these stories? Yes, and how we collect them, and how we enter them.

Tori Allen: I'll also say like to work that right back, it's like baked into the cake of the workplace, you know, the so much of the way we like this idea of what journalists do and how we do it is toxic. You know, like I was talking to somebody who said that, you know, it was considered acceptable for someone to throw a typewriter across the newsroom because they were having a tantrum about something, you know, years ago and like now No, no like to, to you know, from the ground up, build it right in know that we care for our for the people that we are helping to tell their stories. We care for each other, we care for ourselves, not to kind of go on that very trendy self care tip. But you know, it does matter. It really does matter. 

Angela Misri: Tori those are some well muscled journalists who were throwing around typewriters. 

Tori Allen: Sometimes the words are typewriters. Or were typewriters, or as words, I don't know.

Nana aba Duncan: Angela, I'm actually really happy to know that you're in the journalism schools because if you're a person who has wanted to take care and have felt the way that you felt in newsrooms, and now you're in the journalism schools, potentially showing them that taking care is okay, and potentially the way that we can go I think that's fantastic. Folks I have to shut the room down in three minutes. But I want to say that this has been amazing I am so grateful to have all these people in the room and there's so many people that I see in the followed by the speakers and the others in the room that I really respect and whose faces make me smile so thank you so much for supporting Media Girlfriends and for supporting everything that we do. I I'm just going to leave you with we did not really touch on it but I do want us to continue to think about where this could go what what in 20 years could media look like if we always took care in our storytelling and and I think we can leave it there if anybody else has any last things to say then please go ahead. Oh, gosh, what a quiet quiet room. Okay, so you're fine. That's great. 

Hannah Sung: That usually never happens.

Nana aba Duncan: That's what I was thinking. I was like, Okay. Oh, and Ryan I'm so sorry that we just yelled at you but Welcome to Media Girlfriends.

Hannah Sung: It was yelling with love. 

Nana aba Duncan: I know it was yelling with love for you. 

Ryan McMahon: It was quite a moment. It made my weekend.

Tori Allen: We get excited. That is like our tagline yelling with love.

Nana aba Duncan: Yelling with love. Oh my goodness.

Ryan McMahon: That is a tshirt I would buy. I would buy that T-shirt in a heartbeat.

Nana aba Duncan: Bye everybody. I'm so grateful for all of you.

Rachel Giese: Thanks everybody. Take care 

Tori Allen: Bye, thank you.

Nana aba Duncan: Go to mediagirlfriends.com. We have a scholarship. Share the scholarship. Bye bye.