Nana aba Duncan: So let me just give you the brief on who we are. Media Girlfriends is a podcast company. We're a network and a student scholarship. We support women and non-binary and trans journalists and invite everybody. We're focused on more perspectives in Canadian media, especially those by Black, Indigenous and other People of Colour. Media Girlfriends started as a podcast by me in 2016. And then it just grew. Right now we have three scholarships on. We have a $10,000 scholarship for a Black high school student who is pursuing journalism at a post secondary institution in Canada. And we have two $10,000 scholarships for women, trans and non-binary students who are pursuing journalism, communications, media or tech. And so to apply just go to mediagirlfriends.com. And, what else do I want to tell you? So last week, we had a conversation here on Clubhouse. It was called Taking Care in Audio Storytelling. And it included many of the people that you see here at the top and a few people – a few people in the room. And the conversation was really just about how we take care, and sort of moving away from an extraction model of storytelling. I want to tell you who is a Media Girlfriend: if you heard what I described about what Media Girlfriends is, and it aligns with you and the way that you think and you want more perspectives in media, then you’re a Media Girlfriend. It is... it doesn't matter what gender you are, and it doesn't matter what colour you are. Whoever you are  – if you align with this kind of thinking, then you’re a Media Girlfriend, man, that's what I say. Alright! Connie, how are you?

Connie Walker: I'm good, thanks. I'm new to Clubhouse. So thanks for showing me the ropes.

Nana aba Duncan: Yeah. So we have Connie today. The reason why we're talking is because Connie Walker has just launched her podcast, Stolen with Gimlet Media. And actually, it's not just called Stolen, is it?

Connie Walker: Well, yeah, the podcast is called Stolen and, and this season is called The Search for Jermain. So it's focused on a young woman from Montana, who's been missing for the last two and a half years. Her name is Jermain Charlo.

Nana aba Duncan: And the podcast launched last week, I'm sure it's been a whirlwind. Just in general - how you feeling?

Connie Walker: Yeah, I'm ok. I'm overwhelmed. So I would say that. Yeah, there's a lot...there's a lot happening for sure. The podcast just launched on Monday. So I'm at the point in the production where we're still producing the later episodes, but also, you know, just excited to share it with people. And it's also a bit weird, though, because just one episode is out already. So I'm like, “oh, I can't wait for everyone to hear two, and then three, and then four.” But it's good. Good in general, I would say. But yeah, this is a pretty, I guess scary time in general.

Nana aba Duncan: So we're gonna, we're picking up on our conversation about taking care in audio storytelling. What does taking care in your work mean for you?

Connie Walker: I think it means a lot of different things. I mean, when I think about that phrase, even, I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is Jermain and her family. And, you know, I think that we've spent  – me and my team have spent a lot of time and effort trying to take care as much as possible with Jermain’s family. And, you know, the first two seasons of the podcast that I did, were kind of historical cases. You know, there, there were Alberta Williams killed in 1989. And Cleo was separated from her family in the 1970s. So their families had, you know, decades really, to kind of, you know, live I guess, you know, figure out a new normal without, without their loved ones, whatever that means. It's not to say that there wasn't obviously incredible pain and grief and trauma that was associated with it. But with Jermain’s family, you know, this is something that just happened, you know, two and a half years ago, and they still, there's still so many answers that they don't have about where Jermain is and what happened to her. And so it's been a really challenging thing to try and navigate that through also creating, you know, this really kind of in-depth investigative story around her disappearance with them. And so, for me, I feel like that's the first thing that comes to mind is that, you know, we're journalists and we're storytellers, and we're doing this work because we believe it's really important. But it's, you know, I feel a big responsibility to Jermain’s family and to making sure that, you know, people realize this is not a story for them. This is their real lives. And, you know, on Monday, like, I have been in touch with her family, obviously, a lot. But on Monday, you know, I was, I really, I don't think like, I had a full breath until I heard from Vicki, at the end of the day, after she had had a chance to listen to the first episode and just, you know, a sigh of relief that, you know, she was okay with it. Obviously, I think it was still a really difficult thing for her to listen to in a lot of ways. But yeah, that's the first thing that comes to mind.

Nana aba Duncan: Connie, as I told you before that it won't be just me asking you questions.

Garvia Bailey: I thought I was gonna jump in but she's still muted. Thanks for that, Connie. It's Garvia here. Also a Media Girlfriend. It’s good to hear your voice again. And Nana aba’s back!

Nana aba Duncan: I am! No, it's...I was actually starting to say that I told Connie that it won't be just me asking questions. So just to recap, everybody, we're talking to Connie Walker about her podcast, Stolen. And Connie, I would...the idea was for a number of us to ask you questions. So we'll talk like this for about 30 minutes. And then..and then we'll invite some others. So Garvia, do you want to pick up on that? Did you have a thought?

Garvia Bailey: Um sure. Sure. I mean, in listening to that first episode, and the idea of, of taking care of something that I feel like you've, you've built, Connie. You're...this podcast chapter of your career, and even your career as a reporter has built, has been built around this. That idea of, of the story being deeper than just you taking a story and making it beautiful and put...throwing it out into the world. There is so much care taken into it. And I just wonder about finding those stories and your personal connection to them. Which I think that you explain...if anyone hasn't listened to it...you explain it quite eloquently in the early stages, but I just wanted to get a little bit more of that, of that personal connection and why it matters to you, that the care be taken in such a way.

Connie Walker: Yeah, I mean, I was really nervous about including that kind of opening essay. So thanks for listening to it. I, you know. I think that, like, the simplest answer is that it just is really personal for me. LIke this is you know, I'm Cree, I grew up on my reserve. You know, all the stories that I have always been interested in doing about our communities are stories that I have also a personal connection to. And I think Carolynne, who's in the room here. And I'm thinking about like, you know, when I started in journalism, you know, I was very young, I was like, 20 years old. And...but I started because I wanted to tell stories from our communities in a different way. And that stemmed from when I was in high school and saw the coverage of the death of a woman named Pamela George, who I didn't know, I didn't know Pamela. But she was from Sakimay, which is a reserve not far from where, where my reserve is in Treaty 4 Territory in southern Saskatchewan. And I remember going to Sakimay, going to the powwows there with my grandma. And when Pamela was killed, you know, most of the attention was focused on the two white men who were charged with her murder, and that they were university students and that they came from middle class families. And I actually, I found an archival clip from The National. Like, The National had done a story around the time that these two men were on trial. And they were described in the story as “Alex Ternowetsky’s a basketball star” and Steven Kummerfield “a hockey standout.” And the victim –  “an Aboriginal prostitute.” And that was so much of what I remember about how people spoke about Pamela. And we didn't get to hear you know, that she was a mother of two kids or a sister or daughter or an auntie. And, and when they were acquitted in her murder and convicted of manslaughter, I you know, that had such a profound impact on me as a teenager, as an Indigenous woman living in Saskatchewan. Not like, and, and I say that with with, I should also preface that, like, I wasn't someone who paid attention to the news really, or I don't think I thought very critically about how we were portrayed. But it just, I felt it, you know, when that happened, you know, I remember feeling what that felt like, because, obviously, I think anyone who grew up in the prairies, you know, understands that there's a lot of racism there. I didn't even recognize a lot of it until I left to be honest.  Because, you know, so much of my experiences is just that that is the norm. And so I didn't even –  I remember coming to Toronto, and first moving here and being amazed that people didn't care that I was Native, you could just go anywhere, it's amazing. But Carolynne Hew and I, one of the first stories that I did for CBC News Sunday, when I was an Associate Producer there was going back to my community and spending a week with my family. And it was supposed to be a story about education, but it ended up being a story about you know, what it's like to leave home. But I've always had this interest in telling these stories, because I feel like I'm personally connected to them. And so I think that also informs you know, the care that I try to take in them as well you know, like, and this is...I mean... I should say all this just to say like I have not always gotten it right. Like I think that you know I can remember mistakes that I've made and not taking enough care or you know, just being, just having unintentional things happen. And, and feeling like I’m not prepared in the moment or when they're happening. And so, you know, those are terrible, that's a terrible feeling. And so I've tried to do as much as I can, you know, from the outset now to, to put... But these are really difficult stories, you know. These are families who are dealing with incredible pain and grief and loss. And I feel like we have to always try to center that. I'm rambling here.

Garvia Bailey: No, no, absolutely. This is, this is tremendous. I think Rachel had a really great question that came up in our conversations earlier. So I'm going to throw it to you, Rachel Giese.

Rachel Giese: Thank you for bringing me in. Hi, Connie. So nice to hear your voice. And congratulations. And thank you, as always for your work. When we...I think you and I spoke...I think I interviewed you for Chatelaine when the first...when the podcast about Alberta Williams came out. And I remember in the conversation then, we talked about true crime and the true crime genre. And I was you know, thinking about that in the time since – where it's really, you know, blown up in the podcasting world. And I think there have been some great examples, there have been some examples that, you know, sort of highly sensationalized trauma. And I'd love to hear from you about kind of the mechanics of avoiding the pitfalls of the genre...the desire...sort of how you balance the desire to tell a compelling story, but to do so in a way that, you know, centers the humanity of people who have been victimized and their families.

Connie Walker: Yeah, I mean, I think that, like every true crime story, like has an opportunity to be about something bigger, really like, I mean, I shouldn't say that without, like, I should admit that I don't listen to a ton of true crime, or just, or anything kind of scary or violent, actually. And I think that like, we're obviously deliberately, you know, positioning our stories as true crime. And, and it's, it is really important, obviously, for Jermain’s family to try to find her and to find out the truth about what happened to her, and to bring Jermain home. And that is obviously like the central part of our podcast. But I think an equally important goal that we have is to tell a bigger story about some facet of life, that Indigenous women and girls, and Indigenous, you know, men and boys experience. And that's, that's really been since Alberta Williams, the bigger goal. I mean, when we started out doing the Alberta Williams podcast, it was actually meant to be a two minute news story. You know, we had been doing a lot of reporting on missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. And we had invited people to send us tips, because we had created this database of unsolved cases. And we got an email to the staff database or to the email we had set up from from this former investigator on Alberta’s murder, who said he believed he knew who did it. And so it was originally supposed to be a two minute news story. I traveled with Marnie. My producer who was...Marnie Luke my producer, for all of the reporting I did on the podcast, but also on MMIW at CBC. She and I went out to BC, and we were interviewing Alberta’s sister, Claudia, and this police officer, and then also trying to find a suspect that he named in that email. But the plan was to turn it into a story for the National like a two minute news story. And then when we went out there, then we started, you know, hearing from more people. And, you know, people would say, “have you talked to this person because he was also there that night?| And, and we ended up, you know, extending that trip and traveling up to Northern British Columbia, and, obviously, realizing we had a much bigger story on our hands. But. But I'll be honest, and say that, like for the first, like, however many months of it, you know, I was very focused on the mystery part of it. Very focused on, you know, what wasn't investigated, the people who didn't talk to police, why did they come forward? What did they know? And it wasn't until I went to a conference, I was writing episode four of that podcast and I went to a conference in Saskatchewan called Reconciliation and the Media, and it was organized by some Indigenous journalists in Saskatchewan following the death of Colten Boushie. It was that same year. And they wanted to bring together journalists from across the province. To kind of unpack, you know, what went wrong in the media coverage of Colten Boushie, his death in Saskatchewan. But that also then really kind of use it as a chance to educate people. And so they have a number of keynote speakers that they – and I remember the first one was a residential school survivor named Eugene Arcand. And he talked to us about his experience as a residential school survivor. And I remember he pulled out of his pocket a laminated photo that he kept with him of some of his class when he was in residential school, and how he kept them with him all the time. And it was such, I think, an important way to, you know, really center the conversations that we were having about the stories that we're covering today in Saskatchewan, or today in Canada, and how it's connected back to that, to that legacy and that history and his experience in residential school. And, and at lunchtime, the keynote speaker was Dr. Marie Wilson, the commissioner, one of the commissioners of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, who was also a former journalist at CBC. And she used her keynote, I felt to kind of give us all shit to say, like, “you guys need to do a better job, you're not doing a good enough job.” And she said something that has stuck with me, and I ask myself this question all the time in my reporting... is she said: “When did this story actually begin?” Like you need to do a better job connecting the dots for Canadians. If you can't do it in a story, do it in the next one, but that you can't skip the context. That's, that's the biggest mistake that working journalists make. And you need to ask “when did this story actually begin?” And as I was thinking about Alberta's story, it, you know, I thought about when did her story begin, it wasn't with her with her murder in 1989. It wasn't even with her birth, really, in a lot of ways that she was connected back to this bigger story about the legacies of residential schools and the intergenerational trauma that affects so many Indigenous people. And, and it was then that I, you know, I wanted to, I decided to really try to make that a focus of the podcast. And then we ended up then exploring the relationship between the RCMP and Indigenous communities, and that ended up becoming a big part of the podcast. And then really, like, you know, having the podcast be released, and then hearing from people who, who really valued that part of it was, you know, was fantastic, and really rewarding. Like, I remember hearing from, you know, frontline workers, people who work with Indigenous communities every day. Social workers, you know. People work in health care, saying, “I thought I understood residential schools,” or “I thought I understood something.” And, and, but that the podcasts have given them a deeper understanding. And then for me, I feel like, you know, it's just so important to, to include that piece of context. And I think that by also including, you know, the, the, you know, really important questions about what happened to Jermain, what happened to Alberta, what happened to Cleo, and that, to help people understand they're real people and families at the center of these terrible tragedies. Is, is, I think, a way to bring more people, you know, into these stories, and to have them connect back to issues that they might not think they even care about. 

Nana aba Duncan: Wow. That's, that's great.

Rachel Giese: I just love that. “When did this begin?” should be adopted by every journalist. That's such a helpful and clear framework. So thanks for that. Thanks for all of that, Connie. But thank you so much for that.

Connie Walker: No problem. And all of the videos from that day are actually still available on this Reconciliation and the Media website. And at the end of the day, one of the organizers who's a journalist from Saskatchewan named Mervin Brass, he spoke about being an intergenerational survivor of residential schools and the fact that his father was a survivor, and how that impacted their relationship and how, you know, you know, he was there alongside his dad as he went through the residential school settlement, which, you know, we talk about in the Alberta Williams podcast. But I think that like the work that Mervin Brass and Betty Ann Adam did in helping to, like change those perspectives of the journalists in the room, but then hopefully that ripples out into everyone's coverage. I agree. It's so important and all of those resources are available for people.

Nana aba Duncan: Connie, I'm interested. So our conversation right now is about storytelling with care, and I'm interested in finding out  – for this story, can you give us some practical ways that you took care, something that people could walk away with?

Connie Walker: With the family?  I mean, I feel like there's also like, obviously trying to take...

Nana aba Duncan: In any way that you think it applies.

Connie Walker: Yeah. I mean, I think that like, obviously with families or with any kind of reporting with families who are going through grief, and who have experienced this kind of loss, like, you know, I, I really try to give them time and, and, like, it sounds really basic but like time to talk and time to get to know me and try to build trust that is there. I think that's especially important in Indigenous communities. Because, you know, these stories for so long, were not told they were ignored. I remember actually with Claudia   – Alberta's sister  – like somebody asked me a question when that project came out, like, “why do you think she finally opened up to you? Is it like, cuz you're a Native journalist?” And I was like, “I think it was the first time she was asked actually.” I don't think it was, you know, I think that for so many families, you know, these stories weren't told. And so, there, there's probably like, I know that there's a mistrust in terms of the media and the way that some of the stories have been told in the past. And so I try to be aware of that when I'm approaching families and communities. I mean, I think what I've been learning really since the Alberta Williams podcast, and really more deliberately and intensely, since Finding Cleo is trying to learn about what, what it means to be trauma informed in our approaches. And, and really like, even though I'm somebody who has been reporting on trauma, indirectly, you know, just because I've been focused on Indigenous communities for a long time. And even though I'm, I'm an Indigenous woman, and so I have lived experiences with trauma and traumatic events. The truth is that it really wasn't until I started doing this work that I started really understanding, like, what is trauma? And how does it impact us?And one of the things I did actually, after Finding Cleo was I went, I applied for this fellowship at Dart, at the Dart Center at Columbia University. Which is, the Dart Center is this place is focused on trauma and journalism, and they offered this fellowship. So it was like a week at Columbia University, really learning about trauma. And there were journalists from around the world there who all do some kind of reporting that intersects with trauma. But they also had presentations from, you know, there was a Harvard researcher there who's who talked to us about the science of trauma and like, physically, what happens to your body, when you have a traumatic experience, and how having multiple traumatic experiences, you know, can can increase your chances of getting Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Most people experience some kind of trauma, but also most people recover. But when you have multiple experiences of trauma, it's more difficult to recover. And, and when PTSD is left untreated, it can lead to so many very serious consequences, you know, throughout your life. And so really just learning about how trauma, you know, impacts, you know, a person's body, a person's memory, a person's mental health and physical health, it has been really important. But also, you know, in the context of reporting in Indigenous communities where, you know, in all of my reporting, you know, especially around violence against Indigenous women and girls, like, I've gone there to, to talk to family members about losing a loved one. But inevitably, you know, something else comes up, like there are people who have had multiple traumatic experiences throughout their lives. And it's so interwoven in our communities. And we say that, but I think it's also really important to unpack what that means, like...What does it, what does it mean, if you have families or communities over generations that are dealing with all of this trauma? And one of the most important things that I think I've been learning is that, you know, I used to feel like, if we brought things up, like, obviously, that can be a very difficult thing. So how do we take care of people in the moment when we're talking about these painful things? How do we give them you know, the space and respect to feel agency in telling and sharing their stories? And how do you leave them in a good place? And how do you, you know, making sure you check in on them after and making sure that you know, this is not like, “Okay, I've got my interview, I'm leaving now. Nice to know ya.| Like, really investing in these relationships that we're establishing with people, but that also what I've been learning, which I have found so important, is that, you know, we can heal from this trauma and one of the most important or one of the steps in healing from the trauma, actually reconstructing the story of your trauma, and being able to share it. And that can actually be a healing thing, I think if people are given the space and agency to, to tell their own stories, and I feel like that's part of what you know, we're trying to do is really help amplify Jermain’s family to tell her story. Like, you know, she has these incredibly strong women who are, you know, and have been – long before I ever arrived or long before they knew about me   – like pushing for answers. Pushing to find Jermain, searching for her and advocating for her. And I want to, you know, help amplify their voices, and let them tell Jermain’s story. And I hope that leads to, you know, some positive, something positive for them. But also, you know that being able to share their stories is healing in some way as well.

Hannah Sung: Hey, Connie this is Hannah, how are you?

Connie Walker: Hi, good. How are you?

Hannah Sung: So interesting to hear you talk this morning. I just, I always love when you talk about your process. And what you're saying just now about trauma informed reporting is so fascinating to me. Especially because I feel that podcasts podcasting affords us the time and space to explore the context that you were talking about, you know, the kind of intergenerational trauma. And I was wondering, I wanted to pick up on something that you'd said much earlier in the conversation when you said that you have made mistakes in the past. Because, you know, trauma, informed reporting really, is something that our industry has been talking about in recent years. But you're a journalist going back decades. And I I feel like it's still a relatively new conversation. And so I'm guessing that you've probably been in situations where you're practicing...You’re including new practices for the first time in your journalism work. And I would love to know about times where you had to learn the hard way by making a mistake.

Connie Walker: Yeah, sure. I made so many mistakes, honestly. And I think about them a lot. I feel like, you know, the one that I'm thinking about right now is, is in the first season of the podcast about Alberta Williams. Like, you know, most of most of what we learned about Alberta was through her sister, Claudia, who was with her on the night that she went missing. And for Claudia, you know, that has been something  – that moment is something that she played, you know, over and over and over again. And I talked to her about it once and then I would talk to her about a couple months later. And I talked to her about it, you know, later and it would still be the same thing. Like this is something that she has been thinking about and wanting to share for a really long time. And so I feel like with the podcast, I feel like you know, I think it was actually an empowering thing for her to be able to share. You know what happened that night and what that how that how Alberta's unsolved murder has impacted her over decades and how it's, you know, when I think there was some some, you know, feeling of, of, you know, maybe healing or release, like once it was shared, and she was able to and see that it was it was resonating with people and people were reaching out and people. I think that was a positive thing. Also with, you know... But with that, with that podcast, I had also asked to speak with some of their other siblings. And originally they said no, which was...that that was totally fine. But then I think once the podcast started getting some attention, then one of her other sisters or one of her other family members said yes. And this was an interview that was done remotely, you know, and I never got a chance to meet her in person. And it was just this one interview. So it didn't feel like the relationship I had with Claudia, where we were checking in regularly. And it was a long interview. And we went through, like, you know, we talked about Alberta's death. And we, but we also talked about other trauma and that she had experienced and other losses that her family had gone through. And I know that that was such a difficult interview, like, thing for her to talk about, because you could hear it as she was talking about it. And, and following that, you know, I think she went through a hard time like, I don't know, I didn't know enough about her experience to know that, like, whether it was but I felt some responsibility because I felt like, you know, the care and the approach that we had taken with Claudia wasn't the same thing. And, and for me, that felt that felt like that was wrong, and that we should have, we should have tried to establish a more, you know, more of a relationship or tried to check in in other ways and, and that, you know, that's something that has really informed my process moving forward. And like it also like I mean, I've made so many mistakes. I could probably talk for an hour about all the mistakes I've made. Yeah, I mean, I guess, I guess the thing is that I agree, like, these are conversations that are happening now. And I think they're so important. Because they're really like...I didn't go to journalism school. But I imagine if I had gone in 2000, or 1999, or whenever it was...I don't know this, these conversations were happening in journalism schools. But I think that, like, at this point, especially as we're starting to dig into more stories about Indigenous communities, it's so important to, to be having these conversations and to be sharing our, you know, knowledge and best practices. And that was what was so rewarding about the Dart program as well. It was like talking to other journalists who are doing this work. And, but also, you know, getting, you know, getting to hear the science behind it. And and really, I think it's Yeah, I think it's important. Sorry, hopefully that answered your question.

Hannah Sung: It definitely. it did. And, I don't know if other people are waiting to ask a question, but I would love to know, Connie, what you feel the responsibility is in terms of being a journalist and staying in touch with people who have shared their traumatic stories with you. And that line of being a reporter journalist, but also being a human being who wants to be a part of someone, you know, reconstructing their story, as you say?

Connie Walker: Yeah, I mean, I, I mean, I think it's also just kind of inherent in the nature of the work that I do, because the, you know, Jermain’s story is something that I worked on for several months. Obviously, with Cleo’s family, like it was very much like, you know, feeling like we were alongside them on this journey. So you just like those relationships are things that develop over months. And, and then, like I was, you know, just staying in touch with, I think, is really important. Like, I mean, also, you just get to care about people so much like, for me, I, I feel like that's a really important part of what I do. And I'm glad to keep, keep doing that. And I think I love that about podcasting as well, like, you know, that, that you can kind of bring more of yourself and who you are, as a person into the process, and that it allows for, like, the space to connect the dots and to do you know, but it also allows for the space to kind of be transparent and show your process and have a human reaction to, to a moment and in a way that is just not appropriate or possible in like two minute news stories or even 10 minute news stories. So yeah, that's why I, you know, I don't want to go back, I just want to keep doing this. 

Nana aba Duncan: So I just want to reset the room a little bit. We've got until 10:15. Are you, are you still good for that? I just want to double check. Connie, you good to talk still?

Connie Walker: I think so. Yeah. 

Nana aba Duncan: Okay. So Garvia's got a question for you. But I am going to start moving, bringing some people up. If you have a question for Connie, just click the hand icon on the bottom of your screen if you're if you're new. Otherwise, just just put up your hand. You know how to do that. And  for anyone who's just joining us, we're having a conversation with Connie Walker, she has just launched a podcast on Monday called Stolen: The search for Jermain. It's with Gimlet Media, and we're talking about storytelling with care. Garvia, go ahead.

Garvia Bailey: Connie, you know, when you're, you're talking about your process, you say, I always hear the “we” in it. And that brings me to the question around the team that you have to build around this. And you've been doing this for quite some time. And I am imagining that it isn't always... it wasn't always easy for the bigger team, like the institutions that you're working for. And then building that, that closer team around you to buy into the idea that the slow care that it takes to build these relationships are of importance to the story and what comes out of it. And I wonder if you pushed up against that in those early days and, and how you go about – this kind of a two prong question – how you go about now, building that team that understands the level of care that you need to take in these stories.

Connie Walker: Yeah, I mean, you know I did. I think the way that was like we were able to do it. Like, before with Marnie, Marnie and I like, was that we were kind of part of this unit, it was in CBC News. And so, you know, it was a bunch of people working on, on lots of different things. But Marnie and I had done some reporting on another story together. And so when we started doing this reporting on missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls, um, you know, I, I don't think it was intentional from the outset. But what ended up happening, like, looking back on it is that, you know, we ended up build...like, I can really see how, like, some of our early reporting were like building blocks in terms of not just like our relationship, because we ended up you know, obviously, becoming very close and Marnie is somebody that I love and care about really, deeply. And, and Heather Evans was our senior producer through all of those stories, as well. So Marnie, Heather, and I like from the very beginning, you know, started doing this reporting together. And I think that, you know, it was going through, you know, multiple stories together and going through those challenges that you inevitably face together and, and having, like, just really finding in them, like, these incredibly, you know, smart and talented and experienced women who are also, who were also, you know, just incredibly kind of compassionate, and we built this trust, which I think is so important, especially as you kind of get deeper into the stories, because...and I think that if you, like, I'm not suggesting anyone do this because it’s probably not that helpful. But like, if I if I think back on our stories, and you know, the kind of reporting that we did, on the first story, which was...we Marnie and I traveled up to Northern Manitoba to report on on the unsolved murder of Leah Anderson, who was 15 years old when she was killed in her fly-in community of Gods Lake Narrows. And I think that, you know, that was something that kind of happened organically, but then once we wanted to, obviously, you know, and then and then, you know, I really feel like we kind of just, you know, kind of wiggle through a lot of different things in order to be able to get even the first podcast made, and it was a lot of like, hh, yeah, we can do that, yes, we can do that, we can do that. And, and, and we clearly had no idea, the work that was involved. And so it was a little bit of a mistake, but I knew that once, like, if it was out there, and if it was good, then we would get an opportunity to do it again, and we did it with Finding Cleo. But I think you're right, like that building, that that trust and those relationships is really important. But you know, then, like, how do you ensure that that can be sustained, is also, you know, really, a really important consideration and, and, you know, like having institutional support, there's just no way around that. You need it. And, and I guess, that that also requires, like a recognition that what you're doing is really important, or, and so that was, you know, challenging. And it's been really hard to continue to kind of go on and do this work, without, you know, Marnie and Heather. And Jen Fowler joined our team of Finding Cleo and Mieke Anderson did as well. And I really feel like we had such a like, I felt so lucky to have all of these incredible women helping to bring these stories forward with me, and bring Cleo’s story forward. And with the team at Gimlet, you know, I think that it's been amazing to, like, it's been hard on my head because you're like, we're doing this now in a pandemic, and, and all remotely. But I think that, you know, we've been building this trust and, and, you know, the producers I'm working with are John White and Meg Driscoll and our editor is Devon Taylor. And, and, you know, it's, it, there's no shortcuts around kind of, I think building, building trust with each other and really, you know, having kind of open and willing collaborators, because so much like I'm out here often being the one that talks. But, you guys all know that this is like a huge team effort. And one of the things we've been able to like... Jennifer Fowler helped us out for the first part of my time at Gimlet, and actually Heather Evans is also helping. And so I've been able to kind of bring some of the people with me to Gimlet which has been really nice.

Garvia Bailey: You know what I love about this, Connie...is the fact that what you're what you're doing, because of the success of the work that you're doing the success of your team, it means that you are like this perfect model for those of us who believe in this kind of storytelling, to say look like this is a model of care that you can take and be a successful storyteller and make stories that matter. And that everyone can be so proud of. So I just want to thank you for that and, and start the process now of maybe asking some folks that we've invited up for their questions. It's 10 o'clock. So we have a few minutes. Cara, I think you were the first or was it, Cara? I’m sorry.

Cara Fox: It’s Cara.

Garvia Bailey: Do you have a question for Connie?

Cara Fox: It might be a little bit rambly. I just want to say I'm really appreciating this conversation. And Connie, I've been watching you since Street Cents, we go way back.

Connie Walker: Oh my gosh, wow.

Cara Fox: So yeah, you've inspired me for quite a while. I'm 35 now. So what I wanted to say was, you know, now I'm a journalist, I'm a white journalist. And I have a lot of interest in, you know, sharing stories from marginalized communities. And I have done some Indigenous reporting. But it's this constant fear of mine, that I'm going to be like a helicopter reporter or that I'm going to like, you know, be called out like I remember just when I got back from a story that I had reported on in the Arctic, the head person of like the New York Times had been in Nunavut and there was this huge backlash against the story that they had published, because it was sort of like trauma porn, I guess. Anyways, I'm just wondering if you would have any, like practical tips for people that are not from communities. In terms of like, and I don't just mean like, obviously, I, I want to use care, and I'm using as much as I can, but to avoid that kind of like...because I am often put in, in that kind of position by editors like, “okay, go get the story and then come back.” But to provide that, like, relationship building and all of that stuff. Do you have any particular tips?

Connie Walker: Yeah. I mean, I think that that, I guess, the, like, the first thing is that I mean, I think so, one thing that we have to talk about, alongside obviously, like, you know, supporting non Indigenous people is really like, how, what are we doing to support Indigenous people to tell Indigenous stories and that and that, you know, there there is this long history of non Indigenous people coming into Indigenous communities and taking stories. My colleague and mentor and friend Duncan McCue talks about this, and if you are looking for resources, I would definitely go to his website, which is our riic.ca, which stands for Reporting in Indigenous communities dot c-a. But he talks about, on the site, this idea of being a storyteller versus a story taker. And I think there's this long history of people taking stories from Indigenous communities, and, and probably with good intentions, and probably like, you know, not with, like, you know, a feeling that they want to do harm, but but it so often results in harm, because, you know, they, they don't have the the context that that is needed in order to, to kind of sensitively report on the story. So I really appreciate you, you know, recognizing that it is a very tricky thing, I empathize with that situation, for sure. But I also know that there are that there is so much work that that needs to be done to not only like help support Indigenous journalists who want to take on this work, but really like about changing the culture in newsrooms, so that this is, you know, that they have safe spaces in order to engage in this work. Because, you know, really, we're the best people to be telling stories from our communities, and we need more recognition that that's important, and more support to make that happen. And what, like, you know, even though there are all of these conversations happening about like, you know, meaningful representation and diversity inclusion, like what the reality of what's happening is that we're losing people, you know, like the number of Indigenous journalists who have left CBC over the last few years is, is heartbreaking and infuriating. And, and I think it's not just CBC, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's everywhere. But I think that, you know, I want to focus on trying to help support young Indigenous journalists to take on this work and to, to have that recognition that, that that comes, you know, that that's not just something that just happens that that we need to be in intentional about how we're we're trying to create these spaces in order to empower them to take on these stories as well.

Garvia Bailey: Thank you for that. Carolynne, you've been up here for a bit, now.

Nana aba Duncan: Yeah, I brought her up. Because when Connie started talking about Carolynne, well, I think maybe Carolynne knows baby Connie. Is that true?

Connie Walker: Yeah, she can tell embarrassing stories…

Nana aba Duncan: You know baby Connie. Can you tell us about baby Connie?

Carolynne Hew: I know baby Connie. Yeah. Yes, baby Connie was just like big Connie. Ferociously smart and stubborn, and really, always had this singular vision of what she wanted to do.

Nana aba Duncan: Why stubborn? I'm interested in that label.

Connie Walker: Oh my gosh.

Nana aba Duncan: Sorry, Connie. I have to ask!

Connie Walker: You have to be stubborn...

Carolynne Hew: It's like an amazing quality. I think it's like, you know, obvious that it's done her well, like, you cannot sway her when she makes up her mind to do something or go somewhere or you know make a choice. It's, it's actually amazing. You know. 

Connie Walker: I just go around and collect, like, support for that for the thing that I already want to do. I'm like, “you think this is right, right, Carolynne? Like this is..?” Yeah, Carolynne and I go way back.

Garvia Bailey: I love that as an approach to getting through it all. Just gather as many people that are incredible in your army as possible.

Nana aba Duncan: What do you think Media Girlfriends is? I mean…!

Garvia Bailey: It's so true. It's so true. Carolynne, I'm sorry. I think you were about to say something and I jumped on you.

Carolynne Hew: Oh no, not at all. I think, you know, the first time when I met Connie, we were both working at CBC News Sunday. And I had probably just been there, I don't know, a couple months before she joined the team. And she pitched to our very memorable exec producer, you know, to go home to her reserve. And to do a story… Do you want to talk about that Connie? So I went with her and shot the film with her at the great privilege of going home with her.

Connie Walker: Yeah, I mean, it was supposed to be the story about, like, I think we had this idea that we're gonna shoot it all on the bus on a school bus. Because I come from this community in southern Saskatchewan called Okanese. But it's really part of like four reserves called File Hills. And when I was going to school, I was one of like, a very, like a handful of Native kids in my class. In  every class like, you know, it was mostlywhite kids. And there were a couple of us that were bused in, in each class. But by the time my siblings were going to high school, like the demographics had really changed. And now I think, like at that point, it was maybe 80% Indigenous and and now it's probably like 95% or something like that. So we had this idea of going home and really trying to like show the kind of change that's happening in these kinds of small towns or in Saskatchewan. I don't even think our pitch was this long when I made it, but it ended up turning into something completely different. And Carolynne got to videotape fights I had with my siblings, and my mom and stuff. It was a special time.

Nana aba Duncan: Sounds like it.

Garvia Bailey: I love it. I know that Tori...Tori Allen has a question, Tori. What's happening, TA?

Nana aba Duncan: She might need some time. Caro. Yeah, let's go to Caro. 

Caro Rolando: Hello. Thanks so much for this discussion. It's amazing. I'm really, really appreciative. I guess my question is about institutional support or lack thereof of telling stories with care. I've run across this in my work sometimes where I worry that what we're doing is perhaps putting a, um, you know, putting an interviewee at risk or, you know, something that might not, might not be beneficial to them, or offer to support in some way. And I've been met with, you know, you're not being objective, or, you know, your role is just to tell the story, and that's it. And especially as someone who's still kind of a junior in the industry, you know, I want to push back, but I never know how hard to push back, because I’ll get fired. But I do want to push back. And I guess I wonder if you have any tips on how to continue these conversations in institutional settings that still have a very traditional view of objectivity.

Connie Walker: Yeah, I think I think that sounds really difficult, and I'm sorry that you're experiencing that. Like, I mean, I think that. I mean, it's hard to know without maybe more specifics, but but I think that like those conversations around what is objectivity, and just really also just being transparent about how subjective so many of our choices in journalism are, that doesn't mean that that you're, you know, like, like, just in terms of like, the stories you choose, and the people you interview and the clips that you choose to include in your story. Like, a lot of that is very subjective. And obviously, we need to recognize that those choices are made based on our, you know, our own experiences. And you know, thinking about whose voices and perspectives have been centered and amplified in these stories, I think is really important. I feel like, you know, there are, there are thankfully, more of those conversations happening in newsrooms now. So maybe pointing to some of those conversations, or some of those things, if you can find them would be great. But also, I mean, you know, I think that it's hard to know what your editor is, is objecting to in terms of, or maybe you can tell me what your editor is objecting to. But it's also like, I mean, you know, I think that, that there there is, you know, there is still a way to, like maintain your journalistic integrity, and be compassionate and be you know, yourself and take care of people in those stories. I feel like sometimes people think, oh, if you are too close, or if you were a certain way that that somehow compromises the journalism that you're doing, and I think that is not true. But I don't know if that's helpful for your situation.

Caro Rolando: Very helpful. Yeah. Thank you so much.

Hannah Sung: I just want to jump in super quickly to mention, on the institutional support tip. Hi, Caro it’s Hannah. And, you know, I think all the Media Girlfriends can attest to the fact that that's why we exist for each other, because there were so many things happening in our own workplaces, where we just, we needed to reach out to each other to discuss and also, you know, especially when making a podcast, for example, there are so many tiny decisions of judgment that you need to make like, it's like a million small decisions that add up to all of your decision making. And if your boss isn't looking over your shoulder at every single move you make. Sometimes you need to trust your own instincts. And and that's often like peer mentorship can help you kind of, like double down on the thing that you know, to be right, but you need a little bit of support there. So anyway, I just wanted to mention, that's why MGs exists.

Caro Rolando: Thank you.

Nana aba Duncan: And Caro, you are an MG.I mean, I would like to say I think pretty much everybody in the room is an MG. But um, if you want to talk more about that seriously, like let's talk about it, Caro. Folks, it is coming up to 10:15. So I just want to say thank you to everyone who is in this room. So many people...I'm sliding down and seeing so many people whose names bring me joy and their faces bring me joy, seeing you in the room. Thank you so much for your support. Please remember and to share the fact that Media Girlfriends Inc. has a scholarship going on right now. We have $30,000 that we are giving away in scholarships for students who are studying journalism, communications, tech, or media. $10,000 of them specifically for a Black high school student who is going into journalism, and then two $10,000 scholarships that are for women, trans and non-binary students studying journalism, communications, tech, or media. So please share that. And please look out for our next Clubhouse room. I love Clubhouse and I've obviously been having a lot of fun with it. You know, I am taking those considerations into what's happening with the security parts, but we'll see. We'll see what happens. But so far, this has been fantastic. Does anyone else have anything to say?

Garvia Bailey: Well, we have to, obviously, shout out Connie Walker for being incredible. Thank you for sharing and taking the time I know that you're doing a million things around this podcast right now when speaking to a lot of people, but thank you for doing the important work and being such a fine example of how this work can be done with care and compassion, and empathy and heart and bringing yourself to the table. Because I, you know, that's why a lot of us are here doing this work. So thank you, Connie. And I cannot wait for the next episode of Stolen.

Nana aba Duncan: Yes! It's great, Connie, congratulations.

Connie Walker: Thank you. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate you guys. The work you're doing and the support that you're giving to other Media Girlfriends. And the space that you're creating to have these conversations and and I'm, I'm so appreciative of, you know, just being invited in and thanks to everyone who came to listen. 

Nana aba Duncan: Yes, of course. For everyone else. I'm going to close out the room very soon. Follow us on Twitter, and Instagram. On Twitter it's @mediaGFS. And on Instagram, it's @MediaGirlfriends. Thank you so much bye! 

Garvia Bailey: Wait, the podcast drops Mondays, right, Connie?

Connie Walker: Yes. Every Monday. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Garvia Bailey: Oh, fantastic. On Spotify, let's go. 

Nana aba Duncan: Is there anything else you want to say about your podcast and what to look out for, Connie?

Connie Walker: Oh, my gosh, no, I don't want to give any spoilers. But I’m so excited for you guys to listen. But yeah, no, no, thank you very much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Nana aba Duncan: Fantastic. Bye!

Multiple speakers: Bye. Bye bye!